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View Full Version : Blokart rules: Port/Starboard vs. "Right Hand rule"



Ludicrous Speed
11-30-2010, 01:04 PM
What do you think. Those who are not traditional sailors say that learning starboard vs. port is too difficult.

The instead want the right hand rule which instead means the the blokart on your right hand side has right away. Is that really a rule. Basically what that means is that upwind the starboard tacker has right away, but downwind it reverses and the port tacker has right away?

Which is easier to learn?

What are your thoughts!

Thanks!

aA
11-30-2010, 01:11 PM
sounds like you asked my kids to write the rules

Sant de Mon
11-30-2010, 02:20 PM
Absolutely, blokart pilots involved in blokart racing (kids fron 9 to 85 y.o.) are trying to make the most safety rules so that everyone can easily access to this sport.

Most of the blokarters, as myself, never sailed (I know it's a shame living in a small island) and in a blokart race, where everything happens really fast in a small area, you have no time to doubt.

Zipped
11-30-2010, 04:29 PM
Absolutely, blokart pilots involved in blokart racing (kids fron 9 to 85 y.o.) are trying to make the most safety rules so that everyone can easily access to this sport.

Most of the blokarters, as myself, never sailed (I know it's a shame living in a small island) and in a blokart race, where everything happens really fast in a small area, you have no time to doubt.

I disagree, going downwind, the boat on your right can be covering your wind. The rules of sailing are set so that you don't further disadvantage a boat. It would suck to have someone who's stealing your wind converge on you with more speed than you and then give you a foul.

Ludicrous Speed
11-30-2010, 08:22 PM
I do agree aA, is learning basic sailing rules any more difficult? These Blokarts easily go 50 mph on dry lake beds in moderate wind. Closing speeds can be as high as 80mph!!! The consequence of unclear rules at those speeds are serious!!! Who believes that learning when the wind is on the right or starboard side of the craft that you have the right away vs. craft on the other "tack" is too difficult to learn? The benefits of the system allow for very close and safe racing. Why go in some radical new direction and alienate the sport of Blokarting from the world of sailing? In essence, this is what is happening in some regions.

Blokarts needs an International Standard on the basic rules, consistent across all events.

Same thing with calling blokart sailor's pilots! Blokarts have sails (aka sailboats) which need to be trimmed, eased based on the wind direction relative to the sailing craft. Blokarts have to tack upwind and jybe downwind. Blokarts are sailboats. Not airplanes. Last I checked they had no wings and could not fly into the air ;-). Please guys...Blokart sailors are land sailors, not airplane pilots! Nice try!

I really think we need to get this thing back on course for Blokartings sake.

The argument for no port/starboard rule in the Blokart community is most Blokarters are not sailors. Well, they definitely are NOT pilots because blokarts sail like sailboats on land, ie "land sailors!" To say a Blokarter is not a sailor is like sailing a scuba diver is not in the water!!!! Come on guys! Get real!!!!!

This whole conversation is silly. The faction claims they cant learn what a 6 yr. old opti sailor learns on the first day of sailing camp. Sounds more like laziness.

Santi, I love you!!! As I do the Blokart sport and people in general. But I have support port/starboard as blokarting is sailing.

Blokarts are sailing craft. We should adopt simpe sailing rules just as every other sailing craft on the planet does today. To say Blokarts are not sailing craft is the silliest thing I have heard in a long time!!!!

With the worlds in the USA on a huge dry lake bed in 2012, and huge speeds in highly maneuverable and fast accelerating craft, the right hand would be a disaster. 1.5 mile windward leewards, 40 - 50 karts in each race and very high speed starts...it would be very much like an ice-boating regatta. Iceboats have used port/starboard for 100 years!


sounds like you asked my kids to write the rules

Zipped
11-30-2010, 08:30 PM
What you have to consider is that iceboats have it so off the wind the leeward boat is the keep clear vessel. I would have to assume that blokarts have more control than an ice boat which is why I'm on the side to use standard rules

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 09:04 AM
In the USA, we have simply use ice-boating rules. These rules account for the downwind need to bear off rapidly in a gust. We are working on editing a new much nicer looking page to look like blokarts.

Anyway, this is how we do Blokart rules it in the USA and it has worked extraordinarily well. Simple, in alignment with sailing worldwide (KEY!!!!) and all on one page. No reading.

For those who say its too hard, perhaps we can get you a tutor. It would likely be a 9 year old in any local Jr. Sailing program. They learned it on their first day of sailing class when they were 6.

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 09:11 AM
Here is a better quality diagram of the Worldwide iceboat rules one page diagram which is used in the USA for Blokarting.

I think it should be considered as the standard for Blokarting world wide.

WEB LINK TO ACTUAL IMAGE FILE (http://www.iceboat.org/elements/NEIYA_rules_no_club.jpg)

Sean

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 10:15 AM
And for those who say blokarting is not referred to as "sailing" in Europe...

Here is the back cover of the Yearbook from Hamish and Blokart Austria!

Any questions?

Sailing! Land - Sailing!!!!!

Link to this yearbook (http://blokart-connection.com/FlippBOOK_01/10BFT_ANNUAL_VOL_X00a_2010.html)

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 10:29 AM
From Nabsa post:

Guys, this is not logical. Why are we recreating the wheel and alienating ourselves from ALL other sailing sports. In regards to speeds (I own several iceboats) iceboats (much larger fleets and participation than blokarts) go 3x as fast and sail in all kinds of poor visibility, etc. Blokarts are at the same time far more maneuverable than iceboats which are unable to turn as rapidly as we can on wheels. Why is it that this larger sport with much more sailing history and experience uses port/starboard? Are we saying they are making a mistake. Many iceboaters are not soft water sailors as well. The point is we are all sailing. Tacking, jybing, trimming, starting, steering, rounding marks and coming together the same way.

Iceboats (all classes, worldwide) have been using port starboard for 100 years. I think what your saying is that Blokarters are not intelligent enough to learn such a basic and universally accepted right of way rule as port starboard? I strongly disagree. Starboard Port is no easier or harder than right side right of way. Its just different. Why the alienation of sailing? Why allow a few who dont want to learn a simple rule make all of us change the way it is for all other sailing sports? This is silly!

Having a different rule actually is worse because it makes all sailors confused and non-sailors learn rules that are opposite to sailing. I find this very counterproductive on many levels. It limits our sports growth and acceptance on many levels, and certainly to experienced sailors.

blokart in NZ
12-01-2010, 11:46 AM
Facts:
* Water sailing has their own rule book.
* Ice Boats have their own rule book. (with changes from the water sailing one. eg: downwind, the leeward boat keeps clear)
* Land Yacht have their own rule book. (with changes from water sailing eg: world wide land yachts use the right hand rule)
*Blokarts HAVE their own rule book. (with some changes from water sailing, but stuff all if you READ IT)

* MOST Blokart clubs have 60% - 70% Non water sailors. So the argument of changing for the few is NOT Valid. Canvassing non blokarters is all well and good, but what do REAL blokarters think.




What is pissing me off right now about this whole conversation is that, some of us have put alot of time and effort in to producing a set of rules that works for everyone.

At the moment this is a STANDARDIZED set of BLOKART rules: IBRA VERSION 5.

I suggest you read it. The basic rules are EXACTLY the same as our water sailing friends.

Port and Starboard IS THE RULE
Windward kart keeps clear IS THE RULE
Overlaps at marks is the same as yachting: except for a safety modification from boat lengths to 20m

These basic rules have remained unchanged since the start, apart for some tweaking to the wording.

I fully supported Port and Starboard, and still do. However I do not support this way of defending it: A basis of "its crazy" "Its stupid" or similar is like a screaming child saying "but why cant I have a Lollie pop"

IBRA has not officially said that they are changing it, and cant without a vote in any case.

I fully support Port and Starboard, mainly because it is ingrained into me being a Yachtsman / Dinghy / Skiff sailor for 28 years at national & international level in boat big boats, and small one design dinghies and skiffs.

However I have sailed with the right hand rule also, my personal experience is that the transition is easy for a sailor. The only difference is going downwind, you have the right of way when on port. Once you get over this, its is as straight forward as any other rule.

I support the use of the right hand rule if it is required for safety when sailing with land yachts. Wouldn't we rather be sailing than not. My understanding is that in Europe, no right hand rule, no beach access. ie: no right hand rule and they ALL go home. Is that what we want?

On another note: What does it matter diddly squat what the Pilot, sailor, driver, lunatic, arse clown, tosser or otherwise in the blokart is called. Its just like on water, different names for the same thing in different countries. eg: Vang & kicking strap or Aft guy and Brace, or downhaul, cunningham and tricky pig, or tactian, magician and princess.

BTW Pilot was a term borrowed by airplanes from the marine industry. Pilots were bringing ships in to port long before a plane could even get off the ground. A pilot is also responsible for guiding a truck with a large load down a road.


To all the water sailors out there, despite what is depicted, we do have a set of rules (IBRA rules), and for the basic give way rules they are the same as on water.

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 12:34 PM
What you fail to point out is that much of the Blokart community is using right hand rules.
Consensus is very divided. This is a problem.
What you fail to mention is that all of the rule Books are based on sailing rules, which is good for Blokart.
The fact that non sailors are involved in blokarting is no reason to rewrite rules for the rest of the world.
If this is decided and P/S is the rule. Great. Lets enforce it and make it consistent worldwide so we dont have to talk about it.

And finally...blokart sailors are sailors. If you want to call yourself a wanker its your call. ;-)


Facts:
* Water sailing has their own rule book.
* Ice Boats have their own rule book. (with changes from the water sailing one. eg: downwind, the leeward boat keeps clear)
* Land Yacht have their own rule book. (with changes from water sailing eg: world wide land yachts use the right hand rule)
*Blokarts HAVE their own rule book. (with some changes from water sailing, but stuff all if you READ IT)

blokart in NZ
12-01-2010, 02:20 PM
I think it was Greg Elliott (yacht designer) who once told me. " Sailing model yachts is a bit like having a wank.... sure it feels good, but after a couple of minutes you realize it ain't the real thing"

;)




What you fail to point out is that much of the Blokart community is using right hand rules.
Consensus is very divided. This is a problem.
What you fail to mention is that all of the rule Books are based on sailing rules, which is good for Blokart.
The fact that non sailors are involved in blokarting is no reason to rewrite rules for the rest of the world.
If this is decided and P/S is the rule. Great. Lets enforce it and make it consistent worldwide so we dont have to talk about it.

And finally...blokart sailors are sailors. If you want to call yourself a wanker its your call. ;-)

ouryard21st
12-01-2010, 03:44 PM
The ice boat rules work great for blokarting in the U.S. However I would take issue with saying that keeping Blokart related to sailing is key. I sailed and raced all different types of water boats. Yes, I did well and I still left the sport. I just can't stand the crappy attitude of the people in the sport of sailing. Yes, there where some great people , but 70 to 80% were just uptight spoiled brats. I love the people in Blokart on the whole, people are friendlier, and a lot more fun to hang out with.

The assumption here in the US seems to be that Blokart can only have one format, which must as close to a sailboat race as possible each and every time. This is a losing approach, look how well it worked for beach catamarans.

Why do the "sailing" guys seem to want to ruin everything new that comes out?

I would love to try track racing, but unless I go to New Zealand.

Why does port starboard have to apply on a track?

Do track rules have to apply when sailing in a big area when you want to have a sailboat type race?

Rules what ever they are need to be based on safety and creating an event that can produce an eye ball to eye ball contest.

Sailing at Ivannpah yes things happen fast and it is easier for me (granted I grew up sailing) to work out which side of the Kart the wind is hitting, than work out who is to the left or right of who. Yet I can see where port starboard rule would create problems in a small track setting. I didn't like the dust, the dry sun that pulls the water out of you and the coughing from god only knows what we breath in out there.

I would love to hear more about how do you run races safely on a small track like BloKart Heaven.

About BloKart becoming a subset of sailing, I see this as bad news. The facts are the sailing community in the US is not lining up to buy a Blokart, we have to try something different.

People might not want to read this, but Blokarting has to something different from what people can find in other classes of sailing. If major races will only be at Ivannpah (which is dirty, and with wind speeds all over the place) is not a great place to hold world class racing. Ok, they have a pimping hotel and a crappy mall.

Why can't BloKart events in the US rotate around as new venues are found. Keeping races in only one place doesn't help develop new venues and reach new pilots.

There is a great site near San Francisco, yet if we get blokart pilots out there, they will be railroaded into going to the "dust bowl" Ivannpah every time they wanted to do a major race.


I am not saying we shouldn't race or sail Ivannpah, just that it isn't the be all end all, just as the sailing rules are not the be all to end all for all Blokart venues.

What can BloKart offer that an iceboat class can't, flexibility, compact racing or sailing and able to get into smaller areas and could someday become more main stream than sailing.

We also need to think about how to make watching a Blokart race more exciting for the people not sailing the Blokart. I love sailing the Blokart, but watching a blokart race or a sailing race for that matter is boring.

war dog
12-01-2010, 04:18 PM
First let me say welcome to PD ouryard21st.

Now for a bit of a hijack…………Where is this spot you speak of?




There is a great site near San Francisco,




And as someone interested in getting into or at least trying it out how would you suggest I go about it?

Angry Dolphin
12-01-2010, 04:57 PM
What he said!

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 05:29 PM
LOL!!! I love a good debate! ;-)


I think it was Greg Elliott (yacht designer) who once told me. " Sailing model yachts is a bit like having a wank.... sure it feels good, but after a couple of minutes you realize it ain't the real thing"

;)

Ludicrous Speed
12-01-2010, 05:30 PM
Geeze. I need a parapsychologist to help me translate the many meanings to this puzzle of a response. You have to wait a few days for my reply. I cant understand much of this!


The ice boat rules work great for blokarting in the U.S. However I would take issue with saying that keeping Blokart related to sailing is key. I sailed and raced all different types of water boats. Yes, I did well and I still left the sport. I just can't stand the crappy attitude of the people in the sport of sailing. Yes, there where some great people , but 70 to 80% were just uptight spoiled brats. I love the people in Blokart on the whole, people are friendlier, and a lot more fun to hang out with.

The assumption here in the US seems to be that Blokart can only have one format, which must as close to a sailboat race as possible each and every time. This is a losing approach, look how well it worked for beach catamarans.

Why do the "sailing" guys seem to want to ruin everything new that comes out?

I would love to try track racing, but unless I go to New Zealand.

Why does port starboard have to apply on a track?

Do track rules have to apply when sailing in a big area when you want to have a sailboat type race?

Rules what ever they are need to be based on safety and creating an event that can produce an eye ball to eye ball contest.

Sailing at Ivannpah yes things happen fast and it is easier for me (granted I grew up sailing) to work out which side of the Kart the wind is hitting, than work out who is to the left or right of who. Yet I can see where port starboard rule would create problems in a small track setting. I didn't like the dust, the dry sun that pulls the water out of you and the coughing from god only knows what we breath in out there.

I would love to hear more about how do you run races safely on a small track like BloKart Heaven.

About BloKart becoming a subset of sailing, I see this as bad news. The facts are the sailing community in the US is not lining up to buy a Blokart, we have to try something different.

People might not want to read this, but Blokarting has to something different from what people can find in other classes of sailing. If major races will only be at Ivannpah (which is dirty, and with wind speeds all over the place) is not a great place to hold world class racing. Ok, they have a pimping hotel and a crappy mall.

Why can't BloKart events in the US rotate around as new venues are found. Keeping races in only one place doesn't help develop new venues and reach new pilots.

There is a great site near San Francisco, yet if we get blokart pilots out there, they will be railroaded into going to the "dust bowl" Ivannpah every time they wanted to do a major race.


I am not saying we shouldn't race or sail Ivannpah, just that it isn't the be all end all, just as the sailing rules are not the be all to end all for all Blokart venues.

What can BloKart offer that an iceboat class can't, flexibility, compact racing or sailing and able to get into smaller areas and could someday become more main stream than sailing.

We also need to think about how to make watching a Blokart race more exciting for the people not sailing the Blokart. I love sailing the Blokart, but watching a blokart race or a sailing race for that matter is boring.

XC Pete
01-28-2011, 08:52 AM
Hi. I live on the Isle of Wight in the UK. I have sailed extensively (still do) and have also done several Blokart events in Europe and the UK, including the 2010 Nationals and Worlds. Great fun. Personally I would prefer the normal port and starboard and mark rounding etc sailing rules applied to Blokart (with suitable modifications when approaching marks) racing rather than the right hand rule. The Europeans strongly prefer the right hand rule so thats what we run with - no problem.
But the general level of racing rule compliance was low. Often it is accidental and competitors wave each other through and exchange courtesy's such as "no problem but you owe me one!" but there were one or two disappointingly persistent offenders. Everyone wants to stay out of trouble and keep moving at top speed as getting in a tangle lets the whole fleet whizz past. But time after time we saw the right hand blokarts getting shafted and nothing was being done about it. For future events I would wish to have a wide angle onboard camera facing forward and another facing aft to help 'clarify' the post race analysis (and for enjoyment of course). Do you think the GoPro HD cameras would survive the sand at Ivanpah? Or would onboard watercannon be more useful in the desert?

Sant de Mon
03-04-2011, 12:52 AM
Why try to make the same rules for everybody without care about the specific needs of every diferent class.

Not everybody involved in blokart, comes from the sailing world or will sail, on water, never.

Not everybody can sail in huge areas as Ivanpah where you can have some seconds to think about upwind, downwind, port, starboard... as stupid guys as me need to do. We use to blokart in a very small areas (blo... karting) where the most safety thing is the right of hand rule because everybody can blokart in a few minutes (http://abb.blokart.org/contenidos.asp?menu_id=15) and most of the people have driving experience where the right of hand is the basis on the road in most of the countries.

We are so sorry but in spanish and french, "sailor" means "marinero" and "marin", only used in the sea. The other translation is "navegante" and "navigateur", this one is used also in aviation, but never on the land. The logical step, driving something on the land was "piloto" and "pilot".

Dave T
03-04-2011, 09:19 PM
I do agree aA, is learning basic sailing rules any more difficult? These Blokarts easily go 50 mph on dry lake beds in moderate wind. Closing speeds can be as high as 80mph!!! The consequence of unclear rules at those speeds are serious!!! Who believes that learning when the wind is on the right or starboard side of the craft that you have the right away vs. craft on the other "tack" is too difficult to learn? The benefits of the system allow for very close and safe racing. Why go in some radical new direction and alienate the sport of Blokarting from the world of sailing? In essence, this is what is happening in some regions.

Blokarts needs an International Standard on the basic rules, consistent across all events.


Sean,
At lease we don't use Larboard anymore for Port.

It's really easy Starboard has lots of letters just like Right. Left and Port both have 4 letters. That's how I learned it when I was 12 years old.

It seems to me that the Whole World of Land/Ice Sailing needs a World Governing body. If you do not watch out ISAF will try to grab the whole world of Land and Ice Sailing and then we will really be Fucked.

If new sailors cannot learn the difference between Port and Starboard, How can they learn Tack and Jibe??

Do not make excuses to be lazy.

Coleclan
04-26-2011, 01:37 AM
I disagree, going downwind, the boat on your right can be covering your wind. The rules of sailing are set so that you don't further disadvantage a boat. It would suck to have someone who's stealing your wind converge on you with more speed than you and then give you a foul.

An old post I know... but I see perhaps some misconceptions around current blokart rules???
The windward sailor must still keep clear when sailing on the same tack. It is only on opposing tacks that the right-hand rule applies - therefore I don't see any big disadvantage for "give way to right" - it's just that it's different to current sailing rules.
I actually agree with blokart rules being based on existing sailing rules (where possible) - but more important to me is getting all to agree on common rules across the sport. The sailing rules have evolved over many years - but that does not necessarily make them the best, easiest and fairest. I would imagine making any changes to international sailing rules would be nigh on impossible - therefore how much evolution and development has actually occured? With the new sport of Blokarting we have a chance to set rules that are the best easiest and fairest - not necessary locked into conventions set a long time ago for very different type of craft.

The other specific blokart sailing rule being widely used is downwind gives way to upwind - that has come from experience with a lot of fast racing in very confined spaces to find what has worked best. Don't think this one is currently included in IBRA rules but one that I think is likely to be added in the future - particular for tight windward/leeward courses.