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rogue
03-05-2011, 07:33 PM
While I usually sail on the Olson 40, String Theory, for Center Sound #1 Blakely Rocks race I helped out friend Erik Kristin with his J/105 Jubilee. 5 J/105s started in the only one design start of the day. The forecast leading up to race day started getting pretty consistent already several days ahead, forcasting S 5-10 shifting SW, then going N later in the day. While Puget Sound forecasts can be kind of a crapshoot, this one was correct with one pretty important variation observed on the water: a big easterly component to the wind before the Northerly filled in truly from the West around 3pm.

There was a big ebb running at the start, and while we waited around for the other starts to get off we observed how late everyone was getting to the line. There were a couple of pileups and if one didnt have clear air at the start on stbd one risks not making it at all. (The line was not square and on stbd tack you might barely clear the starting area.) We liked the left side and the left side of the line was favored, so we set up for a longish stbd approach leading our fleet and had a great start. We led the fleet out to the Shilshole breakwater but got our own private header and by the time we made our way past West Point in the slowly dying Southerly, we were in last place.

The windward leg from West Point to Blakely Rocks was very tactical. We pieced together a very trickly leg, mostly playing the middle or middle left, but mostly going for pressure. The J/105 fleet lost contact with each other for a while, with Usawi going way right, and most other boats middle or middle left. As we approached Blakely Rocks the Southerly was dying on the outside and the money was more towards shore, dead downwind of the rocks. This was a SW'ly breeze. It was extremely shifty. We again pieced together some breeze and followed Blue Martini around the Rocks, on final approach finally with our kite up. We rounded Blakely Rocks first of the J/105s.

A single gybe onto stbd became a tight reach due North to the next mark, south of the tanks at Edmonds. The SW'ly had transitioned to a difficult-to-define E'ly. The other 105s were within dangerous striking distance so it became a game of cover. We reached for a while but it wasnt easy to keep the kite going as the wind was E going NE. We played around with sailing under whites and sailing with the kite. With the kite we lost some height and we didnt like that so much, but in general we stayed on the W side of the Sound, unconvinced that Shilshole Bay held any promise. We basically just wanted to be between the next mark and our competetion, but werent keen on sailing into the huge holes and shifts that still were around, so sailed in the rougest water we could find. Half way up this leg it got quite light while we transitioned to a Northerly, which filled quite convincingly from the West. As we were the North-most boat in our fleet, and also quite West, we got the breeze first. Delerium was only a few boatlengths away however so it became a drag race up the Sound.

When we got close enough to see the next mark, we realized the RC was finishing folks there on shortened course. The N'ly was solid now, perhaps 8 knots but quite even carpet. We kept in the game and eeked it out in the end to take 1st in class.

Alex, sailing J/105 S/V Jubilee

hobot
03-05-2011, 09:15 PM
Good day on the water even if the course was shortend. Watched Crack Habit ignore thier depth sounder twice. Strider coming to an abrupt halt (must be a lonely feeling to have the entire fleet sail away from you on an ebb tide).

Some misc pics.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/045.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/021.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/020-1.jpg

hobot
03-05-2011, 10:01 PM
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/070.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/074.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/076.jpg

hobot
03-05-2011, 10:02 PM
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/098.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/mvhobot/101.jpg

Ballard Sailor
03-05-2011, 11:14 PM
You've no idea how cool it is to come online here and see this thread! THANK YOU!

and JR running aground, again....we tacked just in front of them, they went 1/2 of a boat length further...but too far. It's what they do. yet they did not hit as hard as strider, WOW, I have never seen a bow come so high out of the water as theirs did after they ran aground...Good times

And as for sailing with Bob, we gotta talk some time.....

Ballard Sailor
03-05-2011, 11:15 PM
Then Muffin hit the Rock, the Black Boat absolutely destroyed the rock - I dropped over 10 daffodils - anything else?

rogue
03-05-2011, 11:57 PM
Here and Now hit the rock but not as hard as Stomp Dancer did last year? They got off in pretty short order.

Dogger
03-06-2011, 07:09 AM
Can anyone find the results on CYC's new site?

Do tell..

Who the hell is Bob?

Dogger
03-06-2011, 07:12 AM
[QUOTE=Ballard Sailor;13842]You've no idea how cool it is to come online here and see this thread! THANK YOU!


If you try hard enough anything is possible!!

rogue
03-06-2011, 08:30 AM
http://www.cycseattle.org/sail-with-us/registration-results/

There is a scroll bar within the Regatta Networks applet, scroll to the bottom, find Center Sound Blakely Rocks and click "View Results"

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 08:36 AM
http://pressure-drop.us/imagehost/images/16498089088738933813.jpg

http://pressure-drop.us/imagehost/images/75563371874426149239.jpg

http://pressure-drop.us/imagehost/images/52200907841254154272.jpg

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 08:43 AM
http://www.cycseattle.org/sail-with-us/registration-results/

But when you scroll down don't just scroll in the side bar, scroll inside of the middle of the screen otherwise you won't find it.

An F'in T-bird takes the day - Go figure!

Way to go Marty.

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 08:54 AM
Here and Now hit the rock but not as hard as Stomp Dancer did last year? They got off in pretty short order.

What's the deal though really, we sail in on of the deepest bodies of water in the world and how many times did boats run aground in this one race? Good stuff!

Bcam
03-06-2011, 09:36 AM
The new website is not too user friendly. And seeing the results when I did find them didn't help either. When we finished, there was barely enough breeze to move the boat and it didn't look good for the slower boats. Obviously, things changed! Good on Marty!

The groundings were interesting. You'd think that Gary would know where the rock is by now.

What was really fun was watching the Car come into the rock from Alki and have to take an extra three tacks to get around. Shifty? You betcha!

Littlebluedunebuggy
03-06-2011, 09:52 AM
It was definitely an interesting day on the water, zero to hero, hero to zero and back again. We only barely tapped the rock on Muffin. No Damage, and we didnt even stop. It was a super pleasant day all and all!

hobot
03-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Then Muffin hit the Rock, the Black Boat absolutely destroyed the rock - I dropped over 10 daffodils - anything else?

The black boat...the C&C?

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 01:26 PM
The black boat...the C&C?

Sorry, the J29, Here and Now

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Here is the Write-up link (http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php) thanks for everyone's input here!

Jibeset
03-06-2011, 04:37 PM
Thanks to Nolan, Scott and Al who came out with me on Cool Beans. It has been a couple of years since I have sailed my own boat with only guys on board. Great day on the water. Great move on Kevins part to decide to shorten the course. Hoping that there is more wind for the next one....

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 05:38 PM
Can anyone get there hands on results with finish times and corrected times?

Jibeset
03-06-2011, 07:38 PM
Can anyone get there hands on results with finish times and corrected times?

Ben you can get them on the cyc site. Just click on the 1 above the class for the race.

Ballard Sailor
03-06-2011, 08:36 PM
how in the world did you figure that out? Thank you.

Ballard Sailor
03-08-2011, 06:56 AM
What do you guy's and gal's think of this situation, how do the rules apply here?


Here is where an interesting thing happened - The Olson 40 ‘String Theory’ crossed the line on port right at the committee boat and immediately tacked to starboard in front of the oncoming 4 boats, directly in front of the Beneteau 40.7 ‘Bravo Zulu.’ Now the Olson tacked cleanly ahead of the Bene, completed their tack and were established on Starboard tack. With headway lost because of the tack the Olson was quickly overtaken by the Bene and as an overtaking leeward boat the Bene has no rights. Problem was the Bene was left with no avenue of escape and was forced into a collision with the Olson and the RC boat as the set of the current closed the opening at the RC boat and their momentum carried them forward. When the Olson tacked to starboard the Bene could have thrown their helm over and pushed up head to wind and have gone above the Olson, but this is after the start and in doing so the Bene would have been forced into fouling the three boats to weather of her and creating a possible collision there. When the Olson was tacking the boats were so close to the RC boat that the Bene could not come down and safely duck the RC boat without T-boning it.

After the incident the crew of the Olson were screaming and yelling that the Bene had fouled them as an overtaking leeward boat. The Bene believed they had been fouled by the Olson not giving room at an obstruction on the race course and that the Olson had acted in a way to promote a collision, not avoid one. Quickly the Bene decided the damage to their boat was around 1 boat buck and they remembered how fun going to a protest hearing is - They did two circles, quieted the screaming on the race course and focused on the long race ahead. Who was ultimately right? If the Bene was really at fault should they have done one circle or two? Should the Olson RAF if their actions where at fault?

Outbound
03-08-2011, 10:10 AM
Ben, I saw this collision and mentioned in the description was that the Olson should have given room at the RC boat as an obstruction. However, rule 19.1 clearly lays out that when two boats must pass on the same side of something on the water then it is not an obstruction. Having said that I think that the bene was are fault. The Olson completed their tack,with the bene becoming an overtaking boat. But there could be an argument that the Olson forced a foul on the bene.

Dogger
03-08-2011, 10:44 AM
What do you guy's and gal's think of this situation, how do the rules apply here?

We love you Kent!!!

alymatt
03-08-2011, 04:29 PM
Rule 16 ( please don't quote me ) states that you must allow the boat that is no longer in the rigth of way "room and oppertunity" to not committ a foul on you or any other boat because of your actions. There must be sufficient room for them to act in a seaman like way and avoid fouling the now ROW boat and they need not anticipate that Olson was going to do what she did.

By the sounds of things, the olson might be in trouble on that one.

Ballard Sailor
03-09-2011, 06:46 AM
I heard Kent was aboard but I don't know if he was calling the shots....

no secret but I was aboard Bravo Zulu - and it was my call to not protest, do two circles to appease them and get back to racing...we beat them to west point, but they eventually caught a great wind shift and pulled ahead to win the race.

My thought was that the only time we had an opportunity to miss a collision with them was if we threw our helm up while they where tacking to starboard and possibly risked a collision with the boats to weather of us. I'm told by a judge that after the start there is no reason a boat can't head up to windward above close hauled as this is the "proper" course to the mark. New info...

What bothers me more in this particular situation isn't who is right and who is wrong (I'd still like to know that) but that it was so important to win that someone would intentionally create a collision for their gain in a group of amateur sailors out having fun on their own dime.

Jibeset
03-09-2011, 08:37 AM
Ben,

There are alot of people out there that are very competitive. Many would say why enter if you want to lose....

jibeset

alymatt
03-09-2011, 12:32 PM
First off it is rule 15 that is in question re the olson..........

Without being there I still say if the only option once it was clear the Olson was tacking into a ROW position is for the Bene to either foul another boat or hit another boat and or the committee boat then I think the Olson would be toast........but again you must prove that you were not given a chance to keep clear once the new ROW way boat gained this position. Now you said you could have thrown the helm over and come up to avoid the olson and you would have been fine to do that as long as you don't pass head to wind. However you also must consider that the windward boats just above you must have a chance to keep clear of you and they do not need to anticipate your actions.......

As for the comment from jibset.......I think that you can be just as competitive as the next guy and not put your boat and its crew and its competitors in harms way! Use the rules to your advantage / protest, and avoid collisions..........nuff said!

Oh and you can sail whatever you feel is your best and therefor proper course wherever you want........however, if you are leeward boat you must not sail above your competitors proper course ( usually defined as close hauled upwind )when overlapped with a windward boat if you overlap was established from behind.

Ballard Sailor
03-09-2011, 02:59 PM
Gary - I think the distinction is between competitive and aggressive sailing. One can be inclusive of the other and they can also be exclusive. I have alway's argued that one does not need to be an aggressive sailor to be competitive (as you can see by the actions of most boats out there on the course). As well, this is an amateur sport for no prizes (or even trophy here) and not professional level grand prix monied sailboat racing. The more aggressive people are in order to win will ultimately chase competitors away, through collisions and differences in attitude, lowering the level of competition in the long run. If the question remains that to be competitive you must be aggressive then why I am out there? I will tell you, I won't be out there, there is plenty of "other" (read non-aggressive) competitive racing out there to be had, Moore roadmaster for one.

Now to the rules here, and I'm as far from a rule guru as can be - Where is Doug when you need him... anyway - so a boat crosses on port and starts to make a move to tack in front of a starboard boat - this starboard boat yell's "don't tack there" as they recognize that if the boat does tack they will have no place to go. That port boat tacks anyways. The boat on starboard, the bene has the choice of coming head to wind in front of 3 other starboard weather boats while the port boat is tacking to starboard, and the bene would be within their rights to bring the three starboard weather boats up to almost head to wind to avoid ending up below the Olson as everyone's proper course at this point is directly at the weather mark. Risking collisions and protests with the weather starboard boats but within their (the Bene's) rights in this action as forced by the Olson's tack from port to starboard. Did I get that right?

By choosing not to immediately head up behind the tacking Olson the bene is now in a position to either scrape their way between the Olson and the RC boat (literally), T-bone the RC boat, or run up the transom of the Olson. All bad options, but because the Bene did not come head to wind as the Olson tacked over to Starboard the Bene is at fault and must do circles. Do I have that right?

And finally, if I am understanding Gary's comments correctly, if the sailors aboard a boat that is out on the race course do not want to act in a way that promotes aggressive behavior to the point of a collision in order to win - they should not be out on the race course. Do I have that right Gary?

Yes I am not an aggressive sailor, yes I chose to do circles to avoid a protest hearing even though I felt we might not be wrong - but I did that to get to the business of racing our sailboat - what I came out there to do. And as Gary points out, more than likely everyone has a different reason for being out there racing. Some may like the rules and try and find situations that they can use them to their advantage at all costs. Some may not like using the rules, instead they like using their skill at tactics or speed potential to win races. What I am doing a terrible job of saying is that when one racing style or expectation conflicts with another style or expectation it has the possibility of chasing someone away from your already small fleet. I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that the guy working on winning by tactics and boat speed is probably not pissing off the aggressive rule slinging guy on a regular basis.

Now this is where if we were on SA someone would start personally attacking me...

Dogger
03-09-2011, 04:50 PM
Uh... "Room and Opportunity"

Ballard Sailor
03-09-2011, 04:58 PM
Dogger that's the thing...we had room to head to weather of them immediately as they started or just after they started their tack from port to starboard. Our driver just felt we would immediately be fouling both buchan's and Jim m by doing that. But we could not wait for them to finish their legal tack in order to make this move. What I am hearing here is that a leeward boat can bring windward boats head to wind as long as head to wind isn't above or past the layline course to the mark.

so we could have brought the buchan's and Jim M up (hopefully they would see us) legally and been to weather of the olson. Sketchy move but if I'm hearing things correctly our only legal move. I still can't believe you can bring people head to wind after the start - didn't know that.

ishtarsdog
03-09-2011, 05:07 PM
#1 rule for me in tight quarters with 40'ers is to minimize damage. A little rail rubbing or a transom kiss between friends, maybe. But when it comes to T-bone steak, I am a vegetarian.

Sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances. I think doing turns was the right thing to do, too. Keeps you out of the room, and let's you get back to racing without worrying about a pending protest that might make the day irrelevant.

In a fluky, light air 20 mile race you cost yourself one good shift. Sounds like you got that shift back before West Point, which proves it for me that you did the right thing.

Dogger
03-09-2011, 05:55 PM
"I heard Kent was aboard but I don't know if he was calling the shots...."

Did you hear Kent was on board or do you mean "I heard Kent on board."

Just curious?

BTW I like Surf and Turf!

familysailor
03-09-2011, 06:17 PM
Gary - I think the distinction is between competitive and aggressive sailing. One can be inclusive of the other and they can also be exclusive. I have always argued that one does not need to be an aggressive sailor to be competitive (as you can see by the actions of most boats out there on the course). As well, this is an amateur sport for no prizes (or even trophy here) and not professional level grand prix monied sailboat racing. The more aggressive people are in order to win will ultimately chase competitors away, through collisions and differences in attitude, lowering the level of competition in the long run. If the question remains that to be competitive you must be aggressive then why I am out there? I will tell you, I won't be out there, there is plenty of "other" (read non-aggressive) competitive racing out there to be had, Moore roadmaster for one.

Now to the rules here, and I'm as far from a rule guru as can be - Where is Doug when you need him... anyway - so a boat crosses on port and starts to make a move to tack in front of a starboard boat - this starboard boat yells "don't tack there" as they recognize that if the boat does tack they will have no place to go. That port boat tacks anyways. The boat on starboard, the bene has the choice of coming head to wind in front of 3 other starboard weather boats while the port boat is tacking to starboard, and the bene would be within their rights to bring the three starboard weather boats up to almost head to wind to avoid ending up below the Olson as everyone's proper course at this point is directly at the weather mark. Risking collisions and protests with the weather starboard boats but within their (the Bene's) rights in this action as forced by the Olson's tack from port to starboard. Did I get that right?

By choosing not to immediately head up behind the tacking Olson the bene is now in a position to either scrape their way between the Olson and the RC boat (literally), T-bone the RC boat, or run up the transom of the Olson. All bad options, but because the Bene did not come head to wind as the Olson tacked over to Starboard the Bene is at fault and must do circles. Do I have that right?

And finally, if I am understanding Gary's comments correctly, if the sailors aboard a boat that is out on the race course do not want to act in a way that promotes aggressive behavior to the point of a collision in order to win - they should not be out on the race course. Do I have that right Gary?

Yes I am not an aggressive sailor, yes I chose to do circles to avoid a protest hearing even though I felt we might not be wrong - but I did that to get to the business of racing our sailboat - what I came out there to do. And as Gary points out, more than likely everyone has a different reason for being out there racing. Some may like the rules and try and find situations that they can use them to their advantage at all costs. Some may not like using the rules, instead they like using their skill at tactics or speed potential to win races. What I am doing a terrible job of saying is that when one racing style or expectation conflicts with another style or expectation it has the possibility of chasing someone away from your already small fleet. I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that the guy working on winning by tactics and boat speed is probably not pissing off the aggressive rule slinging guy on a regular basis.

Now this is where if we were on SA someone would start personally attacking me...

Ballard Sailor--

I tend to agree that sailboat racing should be a pleasant way to spend time on the water while improving your skills and enjoying friends. For some it seems to be a blood sport......

Regarding your description of the incident, I'm have trouble visualizing it.....

"The Olson 40 ‘String Theory’ crossed the line on port right at the committee boat and immediately tacked to starboard in front of the oncoming 4 boats, directly in front of the Beneteau 40.7 ‘Bravo Zulu.’ "

Was the committee boat on the port or starboard end of the line as you looked up the course? Generally our lines are set with the pin on port and boat on starboard.....(well mostly, kinda).

A sketch or maybe a 3-D animation movie from several different perspectives would be super!
Any chance you can get that posted before dinner?

Dogger may have it "room and opportunity"

Any or all of these may apply:

Part 2

Section A, 13, "While Tacking"
Section B, 14 "Avoiding Contact"
Section B, 15 "Acquiring Right of Way"

Another thing I'm curious about, if the Olsen continued on port would he have been able to clear you and the two (or more) boats to windward of you? If they could clear, why tack? Current, wind?

CTut
03-09-2011, 06:42 PM
I cannot speak to the position of the other boats but can give you the layout of the line and geography.

The committee boat was on the port end of the line, the breeze was oscillating between a square line and boat (port) end favored. There was current flowing close to the same direction as the wind with enough speed to affect the timing to be on time for the start, (0.3 - 0.4 knots) with slightly less current at the boat versus the pin. Up the first section of the leg, the left offers better current relief and typically a geographic shift. Most boats wanted to get to the left and avoid having to tack too many times.

A long time ago I heard Dick Rose say that the rules are better used as a shield than a sword.

Ballard Sailor
03-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Familysailor, yes, if the O40 continued on Port they would have cleared everyone on starboard. If they had gone one more boat length and tacked they would have been in everyone's air and clearly won the start.

Dogger, I think you know the answer to that....

The Judges I've asked have responded first with "what was the RC boat doing at that end? That's dangerous." Never really thought about it, but now I know. It was a great day sailing though - I felt we where right in our thinking and this reinforces it...Thanks for the input everyone.

Ben

familysailor
03-10-2011, 10:20 AM
Ballard Sailor-----

So I guess this means we aren't going to be seeing the 3-D animation any time soon?

CTut's description helps------

With the current and wind coming down the course it seems any delay would put the committee boat in the cross-hairs. Hope everyone on board was wearing their "Depends".

From what has been described I tend to think you folks got fouled. (Wasn't there, don't know how close everyone was, boat-speed, wind-speed, participants shoe size, or any other pertinent details)

However, it seems you did not have "room to keep clear".
Check these rules; let the rest of us know if you agree (or not):

13 may apply
15 and 16.1 do apply



Unfortunately I don't have a crystal clear recollection of the rules while actually out racing. I have a general awareness of what seems right in the moment.



FS

Ballard Sailor
03-10-2011, 04:15 PM
Our brain trust got together last night and we all agree on the rules and that we where fouled, wish it didn't happen and will do our best to stay way from that in the future - vegetarian sailing...

and no, the 3d image will have to wait...

Ballard Sailor
03-10-2011, 04:16 PM
Forecast looks good for this weekend, I'll be in Santa Cruz so I'm relying on you guy's for some commentary and pictures!