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View Full Version : Has ANa**** been competing in 2010 PHRF races with an aftermarket C/F rudder?



Leif
03-15-2011, 04:47 PM
It appears that S*** Te*****'s FT10 hull #11 ANA*** has been competing in Southern California PHRF races with an after-market C/F rudder during 2010.

Some of those PHRF events were:
CRA Winter Series Race #1 on February 12, 2010
CRA Winter Series Race #2 on February 27, 2010
CRA Winter Series Race #3 on March 13, 2010
CRA Gerry Brown Regatta on April 3, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #2 on June 2, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #3 on June 9, 2010
West Marine Challenged America Benefit Regatta on June 12, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #4 on June 16, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #5 on June 23, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #6 on June 30, 2010
CRA Summer Beer Can Race #7 on July 14, 2010
San Diego - Ensenada International Yacht Race on October 1, 2010
CRA Halloween Regatta on October 30 2010
SDYC Hot Rum Series Race # 01 on November 6, 2010
SDYC Hot Rum Series Race # 02 on November 20, 2010
SDYC Hot Rum Series Race # 03 on December 4, 2010

To the best of my knowledge, PHRF of Southern California 2010 meeting minutes (http://www.phrfsocal.org/meetings/meetings.php) and PHRF San Diago 2010 meeting minutes (http://www.phrfsandiego.org/minutes/minutes.php?Dir=2010) do not appear to have dealt with rating the new significantly stiffer and lighter carbon fiber rudder on ANA***, if it was reported; and that is a big "if".

Does anyone have any insight, information, or comments in regards to the possiblity that S*** Te****** violated PHRF of Southern California and/or PHRF San Diago rules ?

P.S.
Didn't Dr. La*** get suspended from PHRF racing for not reporting removal of door weight on her J-92 ?

EDIT- Let's keep things civil here kids. Dragging peoples name through the mud is unproductive. If you have an argument that somebodies gear is non compliant with rules of your region, it can be argued in a discourse with your points, valid or otherwise without slinging mud. Thank you!

The managment

BobJ
03-15-2011, 05:08 PM
I always wondered about the keel-to-hull joint for the OD races - I never saw a response from him about that. Did anyone ever see the boat out of the water?

Is this "the" Leif?

Angry Dolphin
03-15-2011, 05:33 PM
This make me very angry!

http://i52.tinypic.com/1zmjynk.png

SC27Hero
03-15-2011, 05:51 PM
Did anyone ever see the boat out of the water?


I did. The keel to hull joint is filled and faired.

I was there when the bottom was faired. That is expressly against class rules and can not be undone. What should PHRF think about this?

If an honest class measurer or PHRF handicapper spent a few minutes looking at that boat they might not be happy with what they find.

Ballard Sailor
03-15-2011, 06:25 PM
Didn't the class authorize a new rudder? if Anarchy is sailing in OD trim wouldn't they be fine with PHRF with the same rating as other FT10's? I don't know the full story on the keel but isn't Bett's making a class legal rudder as a replacement for stock?

BobJ
03-15-2011, 06:54 PM
As long as the class gave PHRF any rules updates for evaluation, that should cover the new rudder. However, a lift-keel boat that had its keel locked down and the joint faired, in violation of its OD class rules - that's another matter.

Leif
03-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Didn't the class authorize a new rudder? if Anarchy is sailing in OD trim wouldn't they be fine with PHRF with the same rating as other FT10's? I don't know the full story on the keel but isn't Bett's making a class legal rudder as a replacement for stock?

No; the FT10 Class Association did not authorize the after market Betts C/F v.3 rudder prior to any of the races that were listed above, and all FT10s had their PHRF rating based on the OEM rudder.

That is exactly why all the other FT10s that competed in the above listed races used their PHRF rated OEM fiber glass rudder; they all followed PHRF rules, with the exception of ANARCHY.

Note that in all of the above listed races ANA*** competed in a PHRF section and therefore was obliged to comply with PHRF rules. However, it appears that ANA*** did not comply with PHRF rules in any of the above listed races.

The question is, what kind of sanctions should PHRF of Southern California and/or PHRF San Diego impose on S*** Te***** for violation of their rules.

SC27Hero
03-15-2011, 08:35 PM
Anarchy has used a Kernan rudder for some events. This is not the Betts rudder. It is not the stock rudder.

There has been a big push by the class to convince PHRF the new rudders are not faster than the old rudders and the rating should not change. Is PHRF really that dumb? Anyone who has steered an FT10 with the original rudder knows the truth.

Shife
03-15-2011, 08:47 PM
That class is fun... er, funny. What a mess.

I don't give a shit what their class rules say. If you swap out your rudder for one that weighs 60lbs less and don't notify your PHRF committee you need to quit the sport and take up golf. Whether or not the PHRF committee issues a penalty is irrelevant. The new rudder being approved for OD use by the class is also irrelevant. You made a change. If you race PHRF, freaking report it.

Reading the bullshit thread where the class stewards try to explain away the 60lbs missing from the stern is a hilarious insight into the entitlement mentality that has become so prevalent in our society. "I made my boat lighter and more controllable, but don't worry I didn't increase the performance so the PHRF committee doesn't need to get involved." Fucking wankers.

Zipped
03-15-2011, 09:02 PM
I put a bulb on my keel but since it weighs so much more it's probably not giving me much of a performance boost at all........ In fact, it's probably hurting me


That must be what it's like in Scot's mind

Shife
03-15-2011, 09:13 PM
I put a bulb on my keel but since it weighs so much more it's probably not giving me much of a performance boost at all........ In fact, it's probably hurting me


That must be what it's like in Scot's mind
Winning!

Zipped
03-15-2011, 09:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZqj_et2_UY

doghouse
03-16-2011, 05:44 AM
This thread made me lol.

Shane
03-16-2011, 07:49 AM
Can you imagine the SA beating anyone who protests over this will take?

The horror.

The Flash
03-16-2011, 07:53 AM
Can't we leave this crap over at SA? This place shouldn't become the anti-SA.

familysailor
03-16-2011, 08:44 AM
Can't we leave this crap over at SA? This place shouldn't become the anti-SA.

Sounds like a great idea!

doghouse
03-16-2011, 09:18 AM
Can't we leave this crap over at SA? This place shouldn't become the anti-SA.
please.

Ballard Sailor
03-16-2011, 09:26 AM
We had two boats up here get new rudders, they are stern hung boats and the new rudders come forward under the boat to balance them better. Both boats had to change their rudders due to failure, they notified their PHRF raters (the ones at their clubs) and those raters told them there was no performance change for a lighter more balanced rudder, so no rating change...HUH?

I'm guessing PHRF is no different down there and possibly Scot told his rater the situation and the rater told him not to worry about it. possibly...

and definitely avoid the bashing, of anyone. Bringing up a rating problem, that's how the system is supposed to work. Once established those of you in the same rating area should be filing a protest with your rater to be brought up at the next meeting.

The Flash
03-16-2011, 09:59 AM
I know the Express 37s went through this - as the original blade created a broach coach. Carl designed a new eliptical blade that had much better bite, and tamed the beast. Wetted area was about the same. PHRF SF kept the rating the same, my guess is broaching isn't factored into ratings.

Leif
03-16-2011, 11:08 AM
I know the Express 37s went through this - as the original blade created a broach coach. Carl designed a new eliptical blade that had much better bite, and tamed the beast. Wetted area was about the same. PHRF SF kept the rating the same, my guess is broaching isn't factored into ratings.

Just curious whether the Express 37 replacement rudder was made with same materials as the original, and whether the replacement rudder weighed ~73% less than the original ?


FT10 OEM fiberglass rudder blade ..... = 56 lbs
FT10 OEM fiberglass rudder cassette . = 25 lbs
FT10 OEM stainless steel tiller .......... = 10 lbs
TOTAL weight of OEM rudder system . = 91 lbs

vs

Bets carbon fiber rudder and tiller ..... = 25 lbs

Weight delta between OEM & Betts .... = 66 lbs

Guitar
03-16-2011, 12:23 PM
There's only one reason you would make something out of (plastic) CF. DC. I wouldn't have said that. TB

Sounds familiar somehow.

SC27Hero
03-16-2011, 01:07 PM
There was a B25 that had a broken rudder. The owner could not get a replacement part from some guy named Leif. He bought a rudder from someone else and made it work on his boat.

PHRF of Southern California gave them a six second hit for that rudder.

aA
03-16-2011, 01:15 PM
why in the world are you grinding this particular axe here at this site leif? i'm glad to see you here and welcome your contribution to the community, but this thread just isn't going to do your mission (as noble as it may or may not be) or this site any good

kurt

Leif
03-16-2011, 02:53 PM
why in the world are you grinding this particular axe here at this site leif? i'm glad to see you here and welcome your contribution to the community, but this thread just isn't going to do your mission (as noble as it may or may not be) or this site any good

kurt

Kurt,

What you chose to characterize as "grinding this particular axe" was an honest attempt to exchange information with other members of Pressure Drop Forum who may know anything and/or are interested in expressing their opinion regarding the title of this thread, especially since many are from the west coast and may have first hand knowledge whether or not PHRF of Southern California and/or PHRF San Diego rules have been violated if the after market carbon fiber rudder was not reported.

As the result of this thread and contributions from others, certain facts have come to light; such as that a replacement rudder on a B-25 was penalized 6 seconds per mile by PHRF of Southern California and that the aftermarket carbon fiber rudder on ANARCHY was designed and built by Kernin rather than by Betts.

Therefore, it appears that FT10s may be racing with number of different rudders:
OEM
Kernin designed and built carbon fiber rudder
Betts carbon fiber rudder v.1
Betts carbon fiber rudder v.2
Betts carbon fiber rudder v.3

Since the sport of sailboat racing is self policing, don't you agree that it is essential for there be an open exchange of information; otherwise how is one to know whether a competitor is compliance with the basic premise of the RRS that requires observance of good sportsmanship.

familysailor
03-16-2011, 04:46 PM
I think there's a better chance you will find sailors with more information, knowledge and interest in your topic here:

http://www1.ft10class.info/

The Class has it's own forum here:

http://ft10class.14.forumer.com/

Information about F10 PHRF ratings here:

http://www1.ft10class.info/boat/polars.htm


Then again, you could ask the members of the PHRF/Southern California. Ask the skippers or specific skipper you've been curious about.

If you develop some factual information and quotes from the folks directly affected and/or involved maybe the PD editor would consider publishing an article....... or not.

Bob Hughes
03-16-2011, 05:31 PM
Why not just post the question on SA? Just asking.....

BobJ
03-16-2011, 07:59 PM
Does Leif's last post smell like BS to anyone else?

I've heard that similar posts about this were made on other boards. Leif, in my opinion you need to make your appeal to the class and/or appropriate PHRF committee (or don't and let it go). Given who the parties are, it sounds too much like s**t slinging to me and a bunch of us are here to get away from that stuff.

If it comes to it, I'd vote for pulling the entire thread.

Dyslexic Dog
03-16-2011, 08:28 PM
"was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Who's with me?.....Aaaaaahhhhhh."

Lief, take it to the source. See what the parties involved have to say. Invite them here, but get your ducks in row.

IOR Geezer
03-16-2011, 08:33 PM
Does Leif's last post smell like BS to anyone else?


If it comes to it, I'd vote for pulling the entire thread.

It smells, either way, and pulling it wouldn't rub me the wrong way either.

Leif
03-16-2011, 09:26 PM
I think there's a better chance you will find sailors with more information, knowledge and interest in your topic here:

http://www1.ft10class.info/

The Class has it's own forum here:

http://ft10class.14.forumer.com/

Information about F10 PHRF ratings here:

http://www1.ft10class.info/boat/polars.htm


Then again, you could ask the members of the PHRF/Southern California. Ask the skippers or specific skipper you've been curious about.

If you develop some factual information and quotes from the folks directly affected and/or involved maybe the PD editor would consider publishing an article....... or not.

Familysailor,

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll certainly explore them.

I have already considered the idea of contacting PHRF of Southern California to confirm whether their meeting minutes are complete and accurate in regards to no mention of ANA---- being rated with an aftermarket carbon fiber rudder during 2010

If PHRF of Southern California confirms the accuracy of their meeting minutes and acknowledges that ANA---- has not reported modification to the rudder in 2010, I may contact the FT10 owners who sailed with their OEM fiberglass rudder in the 16 listed PHRF races with the same rating as ANA---- to get their reaction.

As far as I can tell, all other FT10s who competed in any of those 16 PHRF events used their OEM fiberglass rudder and were rated the same as ANA----. The only exception was the San Diego to Ensanada race in which ANA---- was rated faster for a Code 0.

Of course the PHRF rating issue is of concern not only to the FT10 owners who raced with their OEM fiberglass rudders, it is of concern to all those who raced in that PHRF section.

If any of you have relevant information please post it and/or PM it to directly to me.

I thank everyone for their consideration and would be happy to write an article on the facts that I discovered in regards to this matter.


P.S.
In reply to Bob Hughes' query "Why not just post the question on SA? Just asking....." :
I posted the question on Pressure Drop because after reading this forum I believed that I would be treated with civility instead of being savaged on SA.


P.P.S.
In reply to BobJ :
I've always admired your passion for single handed racing your blue J-92.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular topic, because I assure you that there is no BS coming from me.

BobJ
03-17-2011, 12:01 AM
In reply to BobJ :
I've always admired your passion for single handed racing your blue J-92.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular topic, because I assure you that there is no BS coming from me.

I'll take that at face value and I thank you for your kind comment. Are you Leif Beiley? If so, your "history" with the subject boat's owner should explain my skepticism.

doghouse
03-17-2011, 06:10 AM
Does anyone think that this is actually Lief Beiley?

hobot
03-17-2011, 08:49 AM
ummm.....no.


It's Woodys alter-ego.

Antony
03-17-2011, 08:53 AM
Does anyone think that this is actually Lief Beiley?

It may or may not be. I'm inclined to think it is.

While I am disappointed that this person thought they could start this mud slinging here, I am also remined of a phrase I once was told:

"if you can't win your case in the court of law, you can always try the court of public opinion."

Personally, I detest cheating of any sort. However, SoCal PHRF has always been a level-headed group that have meted our penalties that are both fair and based on a lot of research and facts. If, in fact, Anarchy has done this then they will deal with it. And if this person really wanted to do more than pile on an already miserable person's seemingly significant troubles...I would rather take a pass on that and vote for the deletion of this thread.

Ballard Sailor
03-17-2011, 09:37 AM
What's the vote: Valid argument on a PHRF rating issue or simple mudslinging at Scot?

Ben

Ballard Sailor
03-17-2011, 09:37 AM
What's the vote: Valid argument on a PHRF rating issue or simple mudslinging at Scot?

Ben

aA
03-17-2011, 09:41 AM
can someone please confirm for us that the real leif is still a west coast resident? that confirmation will in itself decide the state of this thread

EVK4
03-17-2011, 10:34 AM
What's the vote: Valid argument on a PHRF rating issue or simple mudslinging at Scot?

Ben

Crap, I can't vote because I think it's both.

I did go over to the FT forum after reading this and am pretty amazed at what's going on over there; certainly not surprised but amazed. The boat's designer thinks taking ~60 pounds off the transom is a huge deal but those that sail the boat don't. And apparently there are PHRF committees that don't as well.

My opinion? I'm just glad VALIS takes the extra outboard and BBQ off the stern rail when we sail to Hawaii even if we do decide to leave the 400 pounds of books over on the starboard bookshelf. And I'm glad that there are controversies like this to make my work day go faster.

BobJ
03-17-2011, 10:41 AM
I am, how shall we say, relieved... the first run of J/92's (including mine) didn't have doors on the head.

Ballard Sailor
03-17-2011, 11:06 AM
WHAT? you take the BBQ off? how do you cook the fish you catch? don't tell me you boil them....:)

Leif
03-17-2011, 12:25 PM
I'll take that at face value and I thank you for your kind comment. Are you Leif Beiley? If so, your "history" with the subject boat's owner should explain my skepticism.
Bob,

To answer your question, I certainly am not Mr. Beiley.

As for veracity of the facts that I have posted, one only needs to check the numerous available photographs of the sixteen 2010 PHRF events that were listed in the initial post.

In regards to anyone who characterizes what I am doing as mud slinging, I am looking forward to reading their comments after they view the photographic evidence that is readily available on the internet.

SC27Hero
03-17-2011, 12:30 PM
However, SoCal PHRF has always been a level-headed group that have meted our penalties that are both fair and based on a lot of research and facts.

You sir have a martini-dry sense of humor. Well played.

aA
03-17-2011, 12:41 PM
let's look at some facts...

1. this is 2011, not 2010
2. there was ample opportunity at self policing during the events stated previously by ways of a protest
3. the items in question, non oem rudder and faired in keel are not new nor news. they have been well documented and discussed elsewhere and apparently ok'd within the class and handicap governing body
4. pressured drop has no ability to change an od class, it's structure, or it's memberships minds. pressure drop also has no ability to hand out penalties for rules infractions at existing or prior regattas
5. the boat in question is owned by someone who is not only not a member here, but also an owner of a well known sailing site himself and therefore will not respond to any accusations here
6. registering here with a name of one of the other sites original creators, who has their own issues with owner of the boat in question is disingenuous at best
7. it seems the majority here are in agreement with me when i say this thread serves no purpose but to stir up shit. this will not be tolerated




as to your identity leif, i know it through your isp and your writing style. you are more than welcome and encouraged to stay here and contribute as long as it stays on the level. but threads like this one won't be accepted. want to discuss phrf rules and or rule benders...great, but sign your real name to it if you're going to make accusations

hobot
03-17-2011, 01:01 PM
Please don't let it be George, please don't let it be George, please don't let it be George........

SC27Hero
03-17-2011, 01:22 PM
this will not be tolerated


Should we assume Leif's response will be, "Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed!"?

Leif
03-17-2011, 01:42 PM
let's look at some facts...

"Has an FT10 been competing in 2010 PHRF races with an aftermarket C/F rudder?" would probably been more diplomatic title for this thread.

The moderator has removed the names of the boat and individuals, and so have I in my subsequent posts.

This was a wise decision since this thread was intended to be about self policing, sportsmanship, and fair sailing rules that govern the sport of sailboat racing. If and when those rules are violated everyone who races loses.


Sportsmanship and the Rules
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty or retire.

doghouse
03-17-2011, 01:46 PM
Is it time for a facepalm yet?

Ahh, fuckit.

http://files.sharenator.com/jesus_facepalm_facepalm_jesus_epic_demotivational_ poster_1218659828_Facepalm_collection-s640x682-82175.jpg

SC27Hero
03-17-2011, 01:52 PM
If and when those rules are violated everyone who races loses.


Let's assume this includes illegally fairing the bottom of a boat, sailing a class event with more than the allowable human ballast, illegally loosening lifelines so the crew can hike more effectivey, and on and on.

It seems when an individual has the power to terrorize a class or handicapping organization they are free to do whatever they wish.

Antony
03-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Bob,

In regards to anyone who characterizes what I am doing as mud slinging, I am looking forward to reading their comments after they view the photographic evidence that is readily available on the internet.

Mate,

If you write up a protest, with evidence, and submit it to PHRF you are not mudslinging.

If you post everything on a public forum...guess what...you're mudslinging.

Leif
03-17-2011, 02:47 PM
Mate,

If you write up a protest, with evidence, and submit it to PHRF you are not mudslinging.

If you post everything on a public forum...guess what...you're mudslinging.


Only recently did I became aware of the carbon fiber rudder being used in those 16 PHRF events.






Let's assume this includes illegally fairing the bottom of a boat, sailing a class event with more than the allowable human ballast, illegally loosening lifelines so the crew can hike more effectivey, and on and on.

It seems when an individual has the power to terrorize a class or handicapping organization they are free to do whatever they wish.


It was in the 16 listed PHRF events that this particular FT10, that is the subject of this thread, competed with an aftermarket carbon fiber rudder.

In fairness to the FT10 Class, all the other FT10s that competed in the 16 listed PHRF events used their OEM fiberglass rudders.

However, when competing in 2010 FT10 Class One Design events, this particular FT10 that is the subject of this thread used the fiberglass OEM rudder.

Go figure.

SC27Hero
03-17-2011, 02:52 PM
However, when competing in 2010 FT10 Class One Design events, this particular FT10 that is the subject of this thread used the fiberglass OEM rudder.


There may be evidence to prove your statement is incorrect.

Antony
03-17-2011, 02:58 PM
Only recently did I became aware of the carbon fiber rudder being used in those 16 PHRF events.



Then write it up and submit it to SoCal PHRF...otherwise you are mudslinging. Timing on when you learned it is irrelevant...whether you learned it today or two years ago...posting it here is mudslinging.

Leif
03-17-2011, 03:24 PM
There may be evidence to prove your statement is incorrect.

Thank you for the heads up.

It appears that you are well informed.

I checked the 2010 NOOD photos, and the FT10 that is the subject of this thread sailed with an aftermarket carbon fiber rudder.

Further facts in regards to the subject of this thread will be greatly appreciated.


P.S.
To Anthony:
You are entitled to your opinions as to what constitutes "mudslinging".
I disagree with you but refuse to be provoked into a pissing match.

BobJ
03-17-2011, 04:40 PM
So what's the plan here? Load up this thread with a bunch of "evidence" and then send a link anonymously to So-Cal PHRF?

Their committee has forms for this stuff - I'm sure they'd prefer you use those. Of course you'd have to sign them.

Sorry, I'm with Antony on this one.

aA
03-17-2011, 04:43 PM
if anyone has any information to share with leif about the subject, please use the pm function and send it directly to him.


i am now closing this thread