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Thread: Blokart rules: Port/Starboard vs. "Right Hand rule"

  1. #11

    This is Crazy Talk

    Facts:
    * Water sailing has their own rule book.
    * Ice Boats have their own rule book. (with changes from the water sailing one. eg: downwind, the leeward boat keeps clear)
    * Land Yacht have their own rule book. (with changes from water sailing eg: world wide land yachts use the right hand rule)
    *Blokarts HAVE their own rule book. (with some changes from water sailing, but stuff all if you READ IT)

    * MOST Blokart clubs have 60% - 70% Non water sailors. So the argument of changing for the few is NOT Valid. Canvassing non blokarters is all well and good, but what do REAL blokarters think.




    What is pissing me off right now about this whole conversation is that, some of us have put alot of time and effort in to producing a set of rules that works for everyone.

    At the moment this is a STANDARDIZED set of BLOKART rules: IBRA VERSION 5.

    I suggest you read it. The basic rules are EXACTLY the same as our water sailing friends.

    Port and Starboard IS THE RULE
    Windward kart keeps clear IS THE RULE
    Overlaps at marks is the same as yachting: except for a safety modification from boat lengths to 20m

    These basic rules have remained unchanged since the start, apart for some tweaking to the wording.

    I fully supported Port and Starboard, and still do. However I do not support this way of defending it: A basis of "its crazy" "Its stupid" or similar is like a screaming child saying "but why cant I have a Lollie pop"

    IBRA has not officially said that they are changing it, and cant without a vote in any case.

    I fully support Port and Starboard, mainly because it is ingrained into me being a Yachtsman / Dinghy / Skiff sailor for 28 years at national & international level in boat big boats, and small one design dinghies and skiffs.

    However I have sailed with the right hand rule also, my personal experience is that the transition is easy for a sailor. The only difference is going downwind, you have the right of way when on port. Once you get over this, its is as straight forward as any other rule.

    I support the use of the right hand rule if it is required for safety when sailing with land yachts. Wouldn't we rather be sailing than not. My understanding is that in Europe, no right hand rule, no beach access. ie: no right hand rule and they ALL go home. Is that what we want?

    On another note: What does it matter diddly squat what the Pilot, sailor, driver, lunatic, arse clown, tosser or otherwise in the blokart is called. Its just like on water, different names for the same thing in different countries. eg: Vang & kicking strap or Aft guy and Brace, or downhaul, cunningham and tricky pig, or tactian, magician and princess.

    BTW Pilot was a term borrowed by airplanes from the marine industry. Pilots were bringing ships in to port long before a plane could even get off the ground. A pilot is also responsible for guiding a truck with a large load down a road.


    To all the water sailors out there, despite what is depicted, we do have a set of rules (IBRA rules), and for the basic give way rules they are the same as on water.

  2. #12
    What you fail to point out is that much of the Blokart community is using right hand rules.
    Consensus is very divided. This is a problem.
    What you fail to mention is that all of the rule Books are based on sailing rules, which is good for Blokart.
    The fact that non sailors are involved in blokarting is no reason to rewrite rules for the rest of the world.
    If this is decided and P/S is the rule. Great. Lets enforce it and make it consistent worldwide so we dont have to talk about it.

    And finally...blokart sailors are sailors. If you want to call yourself a wanker its your call. ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by blokart in NZ View Post
    Facts:
    * Water sailing has their own rule book.
    * Ice Boats have their own rule book. (with changes from the water sailing one. eg: downwind, the leeward boat keeps clear)
    * Land Yacht have their own rule book. (with changes from water sailing eg: world wide land yachts use the right hand rule)
    *Blokarts HAVE their own rule book. (with some changes from water sailing, but stuff all if you READ IT)

  3. #13
    I think it was Greg Elliott (yacht designer) who once told me. " Sailing model yachts is a bit like having a wank.... sure it feels good, but after a couple of minutes you realize it ain't the real thing"





    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicrous Speed View Post
    What you fail to point out is that much of the Blokart community is using right hand rules.
    Consensus is very divided. This is a problem.
    What you fail to mention is that all of the rule Books are based on sailing rules, which is good for Blokart.
    The fact that non sailors are involved in blokarting is no reason to rewrite rules for the rest of the world.
    If this is decided and P/S is the rule. Great. Lets enforce it and make it consistent worldwide so we dont have to talk about it.

    And finally...blokart sailors are sailors. If you want to call yourself a wanker its your call. ;-)

  4. #14
    nOOb
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    The ice boat rules work great for blokarting in the U.S. However I would take issue with saying that keeping Blokart related to sailing is key. I sailed and raced all different types of water boats. Yes, I did well and I still left the sport. I just can't stand the crappy attitude of the people in the sport of sailing. Yes, there where some great people , but 70 to 80% were just uptight spoiled brats. I love the people in Blokart on the whole, people are friendlier, and a lot more fun to hang out with.

    The assumption here in the US seems to be that Blokart can only have one format, which must as close to a sailboat race as possible each and every time. This is a losing approach, look how well it worked for beach catamarans.

    Why do the "sailing" guys seem to want to ruin everything new that comes out?

    I would love to try track racing, but unless I go to New Zealand.

    Why does port starboard have to apply on a track?

    Do track rules have to apply when sailing in a big area when you want to have a sailboat type race?

    Rules what ever they are need to be based on safety and creating an event that can produce an eye ball to eye ball contest.

    Sailing at Ivannpah yes things happen fast and it is easier for me (granted I grew up sailing) to work out which side of the Kart the wind is hitting, than work out who is to the left or right of who. Yet I can see where port starboard rule would create problems in a small track setting. I didn't like the dust, the dry sun that pulls the water out of you and the coughing from god only knows what we breath in out there.

    I would love to hear more about how do you run races safely on a small track like BloKart Heaven.

    About BloKart becoming a subset of sailing, I see this as bad news. The facts are the sailing community in the US is not lining up to buy a Blokart, we have to try something different.

    People might not want to read this, but Blokarting has to something different from what people can find in other classes of sailing. If major races will only be at Ivannpah (which is dirty, and with wind speeds all over the place) is not a great place to hold world class racing. Ok, they have a pimping hotel and a crappy mall.

    Why can't BloKart events in the US rotate around as new venues are found. Keeping races in only one place doesn't help develop new venues and reach new pilots.

    There is a great site near San Francisco, yet if we get blokart pilots out there, they will be railroaded into going to the "dust bowl" Ivannpah every time they wanted to do a major race.


    I am not saying we shouldn't race or sail Ivannpah, just that it isn't the be all end all, just as the sailing rules are not the be all to end all for all Blokart venues.

    What can BloKart offer that an iceboat class can't, flexibility, compact racing or sailing and able to get into smaller areas and could someday become more main stream than sailing.

    We also need to think about how to make watching a Blokart race more exciting for the people not sailing the Blokart. I love sailing the Blokart, but watching a blokart race or a sailing race for that matter is boring.

  5. #15
    COO of Unauthorized Sailing Divisions! war dog's Avatar
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    First let me say welcome to PD ouryard21st.

    Now for a bit of a hijack…………Where is this spot you speak of?

    Quote Originally Posted by ouryard21st View Post

    There is a great site near San Francisco,

    And as someone interested in getting into or at least trying it out how would you suggest I go about it?

  6. #16

  7. #17
    LOL!!! I love a good debate! ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by blokart in NZ View Post
    I think it was Greg Elliott (yacht designer) who once told me. " Sailing model yachts is a bit like having a wank.... sure it feels good, but after a couple of minutes you realize it ain't the real thing"


  8. #18
    Geeze. I need a parapsychologist to help me translate the many meanings to this puzzle of a response. You have to wait a few days for my reply. I cant understand much of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by ouryard21st View Post
    The ice boat rules work great for blokarting in the U.S. However I would take issue with saying that keeping Blokart related to sailing is key. I sailed and raced all different types of water boats. Yes, I did well and I still left the sport. I just can't stand the crappy attitude of the people in the sport of sailing. Yes, there where some great people , but 70 to 80% were just uptight spoiled brats. I love the people in Blokart on the whole, people are friendlier, and a lot more fun to hang out with.

    The assumption here in the US seems to be that Blokart can only have one format, which must as close to a sailboat race as possible each and every time. This is a losing approach, look how well it worked for beach catamarans.

    Why do the "sailing" guys seem to want to ruin everything new that comes out?

    I would love to try track racing, but unless I go to New Zealand.

    Why does port starboard have to apply on a track?

    Do track rules have to apply when sailing in a big area when you want to have a sailboat type race?

    Rules what ever they are need to be based on safety and creating an event that can produce an eye ball to eye ball contest.

    Sailing at Ivannpah yes things happen fast and it is easier for me (granted I grew up sailing) to work out which side of the Kart the wind is hitting, than work out who is to the left or right of who. Yet I can see where port starboard rule would create problems in a small track setting. I didn't like the dust, the dry sun that pulls the water out of you and the coughing from god only knows what we breath in out there.

    I would love to hear more about how do you run races safely on a small track like BloKart Heaven.

    About BloKart becoming a subset of sailing, I see this as bad news. The facts are the sailing community in the US is not lining up to buy a Blokart, we have to try something different.

    People might not want to read this, but Blokarting has to something different from what people can find in other classes of sailing. If major races will only be at Ivannpah (which is dirty, and with wind speeds all over the place) is not a great place to hold world class racing. Ok, they have a pimping hotel and a crappy mall.

    Why can't BloKart events in the US rotate around as new venues are found. Keeping races in only one place doesn't help develop new venues and reach new pilots.

    There is a great site near San Francisco, yet if we get blokart pilots out there, they will be railroaded into going to the "dust bowl" Ivannpah every time they wanted to do a major race.


    I am not saying we shouldn't race or sail Ivannpah, just that it isn't the be all end all, just as the sailing rules are not the be all to end all for all Blokart venues.

    What can BloKart offer that an iceboat class can't, flexibility, compact racing or sailing and able to get into smaller areas and could someday become more main stream than sailing.

    We also need to think about how to make watching a Blokart race more exciting for the people not sailing the Blokart. I love sailing the Blokart, but watching a blokart race or a sailing race for that matter is boring.

  9. #19
    Hi. I live on the Isle of Wight in the UK. I have sailed extensively (still do) and have also done several Blokart events in Europe and the UK, including the 2010 Nationals and Worlds. Great fun. Personally I would prefer the normal port and starboard and mark rounding etc sailing rules applied to Blokart (with suitable modifications when approaching marks) racing rather than the right hand rule. The Europeans strongly prefer the right hand rule so thats what we run with - no problem.
    But the general level of racing rule compliance was low. Often it is accidental and competitors wave each other through and exchange courtesy's such as "no problem but you owe me one!" but there were one or two disappointingly persistent offenders. Everyone wants to stay out of trouble and keep moving at top speed as getting in a tangle lets the whole fleet whizz past. But time after time we saw the right hand blokarts getting shafted and nothing was being done about it. For future events I would wish to have a wide angle onboard camera facing forward and another facing aft to help 'clarify' the post race analysis (and for enjoyment of course). Do you think the GoPro HD cameras would survive the sand at Ivanpah? Or would onboard watercannon be more useful in the desert?

  10. #20
    Why try to make the same rules for everybody without care about the specific needs of every diferent class.

    Not everybody involved in blokart, comes from the sailing world or will sail, on water, never.

    Not everybody can sail in huge areas as Ivanpah where you can have some seconds to think about upwind, downwind, port, starboard... as stupid guys as me need to do. We use to blokart in a very small areas (blo... karting) where the most safety thing is the right of hand rule because everybody can blokart in a few minutes (http://abb.blokart.org/contenidos.asp?menu_id=15) and most of the people have driving experience where the right of hand is the basis on the road in most of the countries.

    We are so sorry but in spanish and french, "sailor" means "marinero" and "marin", only used in the sea. The other translation is "navegante" and "navigateur", this one is used also in aviation, but never on the land. The logical step, driving something on the land was "piloto" and "pilot".
    Defeat after defeat 'til the final victory

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